An Interview with Norma McCorvey,
the "Roe" of Roe vs. Wade
Since her conversion to Christianity and to the pro-life cause, Norma
McCorvey, the plaintiff in the Roe vs. Wade decision, has been a friend of
Priests for Life and of Fr. Frank Pavone. This summer (1997) she will appear on
the third edition of Fr. Frank's Defending Life television series
on the Eternal Word Television Network. Her new book, Won by Love,
telling the marvelous story of her conversion from the abortion industry, will
soon be available.
Following is a transcript of an interview held with Norma shortly after her
conversion to the Way of Life. An audiotape of this interview is available from
Priests for Life.
FATHER PAVONE:
This is Father Frank Pavone and I am here with Norma McCorvey. We're going to
talk a little bit about her experiences and her convictions. Norma, thank you
very much for being with us.
NORMA:
And thank you for having me, Father.
FATHER PAVONE:
Norma, we’ve talked on a good number of occasions, and have shared the joy of
what has happened to you, but for the sake of those who are listening to this
tape, you are the Jane Roe of Roe vs. Wade.
NORMA:
Yes, Father, I was the Jane Roe of Roe vs. Wade, but Jane Roe has been
laid to rest.
FATHER PAVONE:
Tell us a little bit about how that happened.
NORMA:
Well, for quite some time Jane Roe/Norma McCorvey had been looking for a
spiritual path that she could believe in and feel solid in. And, Operation
Rescue moved next to the abortion mill that I worked for, on April 1, a year
ago, this past April. And Reverend Benham, started sharing the Gospel of Jesus
Christ with me.
FATHER PAVONE:
And, so in other words his office was next to your abortion facility where
you were working. And how did that contact begin? Did they approach you, or how
did that happen?
NORMA:
You know, I think it was kind of a mutual thing. I had made kind of a deal
with them: I asked them if they did not bring out the place card of Malachi, {a
poster of an aborted child}, that I would let them have two minutes with each
one of my patients.
FATHER PAVONE:
Malachi is one of those..
NORMA:
It’s the 21week old fetus found in Dallas about four years ago, I believe.
So, we honored each other's wishes, and they didn’t put out the place cards and
I let them have two minutes with each one of my patients.
FATHER PAVONE:
Going back to the early 70’s when the Roe vs. Wade case was going up through
the courts, when you initially got involved in that whole process, did you ever
think or did it ever occur to you that it would become such a landmark case?
NORMA:
Absolutely not Father. I was very politically naïve at the time. I thought
that I wanted to have an abortion with the baby that I was carrying, but I had
no idea that it would lead up to such a controversial issue.
FATHER PAVONE:
As I understand from your own autobiography, you did not go looking for these
attorneys to try to make abortion legal.
NORMA:
No, sir, quite the contrary. The adoption attorney that was handling the
adoption case for my baby told me of these attorneys. They were Sarah Weddington
and Linda Coffey. They were trying to overcome the Texas statute on abortion.
FATHER PAVONE:
And, so they approached you.
NORMA:
Yes, sir. Henry McCloskey, Jr. arranged the first initial meeting. And we met
and we discussed, for the first time in my life, reproductive rights.
FATHER PAVONE:
For the first time in your life it was a discussion.
NORMA:
Yes, sir.
FATHER PAVONE:
Norma, at that point, and later as your case progressed and after it was
decided, what was your image of pro-life people and the pro-life movement?
NORMA:
Well, Father I really didn't know of... I didn't know that there was two
sides to the abortion issue. I didn't attend any of the court proceedings. I
didn't. In fact that's why I used the name Jane Roe because I didn't want my own
personal name to be involved in it, because I had always been involved with
stuff and it always turned out pretty bad, and I always felt really bad about
that. So I wasn't taking a chance with this.
FATHER PAVONE:
Could you tell us what your position is right now about abortion and the
morality of abortion?
NORMA:
Well, the morality of abortion is, it's totally wrong. Since August 8, 1995,
I have been pro-life clear across the board.
FATHER PAVONE:
Now, when you say clear across the board, what do you mean?
NORMA:
Well, I mean I have said in an interview with Ted Koppel back in 1995 that I
was still pro-choice, I was still not pro-choice but in favor of a woman's
abortion in the first trimester. But then I looked at a fetal development chart
at the Operation Rescue Office in Dallas. I had a lot of emotions stirring up
inside of me and that's when I decided that it was wrong in any stage of
pregnancy.
FATHER PAVONE: At any stage of pregnancy and also for any reason?
NORMA:
Absolutely, Father.
FATHER PAVONE:
Okay, so you would not think, for example, that there could be some
circumstances in which it would be all right for a woman to have an abortion?
NORMA:
No, sir.
FATHER PAVONE:
How did your position on this change?
NORMA:
Well, I had already been attacking, if you could use that word, in a gentle
way, the abortionist that I worked for. He's a very greedy man, a selfish man.
And we would have patients that would come in and say, Well, I found out, I had
all these tests and I found out that my baby is going to have a cleft palate.
I'm going like, that's not a reason. That's just an excuse. And the doctor would
do the abortion, he would do and charge women money and not even do an abortion.
He would lie to them and tell them that they were pregnant. So, seeing him and
watching him every Thursday through Saturday do the abortions, making the
appointments, for not good reasons. I mean, of course, I don't think there is a
good reason for an abortion, but Dr. Jasper made me really realize that it was
just a racket. You know, he was just doing it for the money. He didn't care
about the women, he didn't care if they got their two week checkups. You know,
he didn't care if they had their medications. You know, I mean he never told
them you know, like when you have to get this, and this, and this. And it's
essential that you take it. He didn't care.
FATHER PAVONE:
Now that you've become pro-life and you no longer work for him or for the
abortion industry, tell us what you do do.
NORMA:
(Laughter) I'm the computer operator for Operation Rescue National.
(Laughter)
FATHER PAVONE:
That's quite an irony, isn't it?
NORMA:
Yes, sir, it is.
FATHER PAVONE:
And, how about your relationship with the Lord? Has the Lord forgiven you for
the past?
NORMA:
Oh yes, He's been very, He's showed me, He has showed me great mercy, great
forgiveness and when Rev. Flip {Benham} baptized me last summer in that pool in
North Garland, all my sins, regardless of what they were or when I did them were
forgiven, and I was washed by the Blood of the Lamb.
FATHER PAVONE:
Tell us what reaction you've had from the pro-choice community to your
conversion.
NORMA:
Oh, they say that I never had any credibility with them. One particular
organization, TARAL, said that they used to send me on lecture tours. And I'll
go up, I don't even know where your office is. I mean you know that they're
based in Austin, TX. So they just made it, they've just done the same thing that
they did for me for all the years that I was out. They just tried to discredit
me. And it's like I used to tell them often. You know, this is not the right
thing to do, you know, there's too many wonderful people out there who can't
have children, who would want to have these children. And I gave two of my
babies away. There's no excuse for it. But they went to loving parents and
that's what counts.
FATHER PAVONE:
Your children?
NORMA:
Yes. My children.
FATHER PAVONE:
Some people say, many people say, in fact, that if this conversion to a
pro-life commitment happened to you, it can happen to anybody. Is there hope for
those who seem to be so hardened in their pro-choice views?
NORMA:
Absolutely, Father. There's a feminist writer, by the name of Naomi Wolfe who
is reconsidering her position on abortion. There's another woman, I can't bring
up her name right this minute, who's also reconsidering her position on
abortion. So, I mean I think it's just a sign of the times that women are
actually seeing for the first time what a depressing and what a holocaust this
is to the unborn.
FATHER PAVONE:
How do we approach those who do have a pro-abortion position to try to get
them to convert?
NORMA:
I think with love and understanding. And telling them about Jesus and letting
them realize for themselves that the holocaust against the unborn is the
greatest sin that they could ever do or even ever participate in.
FATHER PAVONE:
I'd like to ask you a couple of final questions about what you think people
across America should do to help stop abortion, and I'd like if you could
address that in a general way and then say specifically to young people, and
then specifically to the clergy, and then to those who consider themselves
pro-choice. First, in general, what can we do to stop abortion?
NORMA:
I think that every man, woman, and child who believe in God and believe in
Jesus. And it doesn't make any difference what religion you are, or how young
you are or how old you are, I think if they get up and go to these abortion
mills, and stand there-- and they don't have to do anything, they can just stand
there and pray, I think that would make a lot of difference. We have to be seen
in numbers.
To young people, I would say, please listen to your parents. Do not have
extra-marital relationships, before you're married. It is a wrong thing to do.
God does not like it. It's in the Ten Commandments and we do live by His Book.
And that's the best way to start out a marriage is to have both of you to be
wholesome.
FATHER PAVONE:
Now, you are the woman whose name is used to promote this doctrine of choice.
What if young people are told by their friends this is my choice you can't tell
me what to do. What do you have to say to that?
NORMA:
What I have to say to those young people is that we live in a society today
where these children can be wanted children. And even if you don't want to keep
this child, after you've had it, there's plenty of young couples out there,
there's plenty of young couples everywhere that want children. And, it's not
your body, it's not your choice, because you got that from God. He gave that to
you and He gave that to you from you Mama and your Daddy.
FATHER PAVONE:
What would you say to the clergy?
NORMA:
Get out and fight 'em, boys! (Laughter)
FATHER PAVONE:
Praise the Lord! And, finally to those who consider themselves pro-choice, do
you have a message to them?
NORMA:
I will pray for each and everyone of them. I hope that they don't have to see
the things that I've seen or experience the cries, the tears, the depression
that I've had to listen to, and that hurts me very much when I think about it.
Reconsider you position on the holocaust, because it could hurt someone in your
life.
FATHER PAVONE:
Now, could we say a final prayer together.
NORMA:
Yes, Father.
FATHER PAVONE:
Why don't you say some words to the Lord and then I'll conclude also.
NORMA:
Father God, we just ask You to open Your wide, wide arms and look down upon
us Lord and lead us, and let us know what we should do to stop this, this
terrible, terrible holocaust.
FATHER PAVONE:
And Lord God, we thank You for the grace You pour out on all people and at
this moment we thank You in a special way for what You have done for Norma:
rescuing her from all sorts of deception, and from the manipulation of others,
and rescuing her from error and falsehood, rescuing her from the lie of abortion
and bringing her to You, Oh Lord, into Faith, into Baptism, and into the
pro-life movement. And on behalf of each and every person in that movement, on
behalf of everyone who hears these words, I now bestow upon you, Norma, the
blessing of the Lord Jesus and the prayers and good wishes of all the people who
hear you and who know about you. May that blessing come upon you in the Name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
NORMA:
Amen
FATHER PAVONE:
Thanks so much for talking with us.
NORMA:
Thank you.
